Beyond the Wall: Do you view Stannis Baratheon a little differently now?

After last week’s incredible episode “And Now His Watch Has Ended,” Game of Thrones had set a very high bar for “Kissed By Fire” to meet. There are some — Ivey yes, Bob no — that think that this week’s installment was actually the better of the two. Despite the argument that no one could ever win (especially Bob, since he’s wrong), it is impossible to deny that it was pretty great television. From the battle between the Hound and Beric Dondarrion to an Emmy-worthy bath (Brienne and Jaime and not Ygritte and Jon, for those of you with your minds in the gutter), this episode brought the goods.

Lost behind Nikolaj Coster-Waldau’s outstanding performance, however, was a couple of scenes that showed a different side of Stannis Baratheon. We’ve only seen him as a battlefield commander: leading war rooms or men into battle, treating with his enemies — and his family, because in Westeros those things are rarely mutually exclusive — or “conspiring” with the most jacked-up wartime consigliere on television today, the Lady Melisandre.

This week’s Beyond the Wall will focus on Stannis. Do these new scenes paint the would-be king in a different light, or is he still the unwaveringly cold man we’ve always known him to be. But first, a reminder of the Spoilers that will likely follow. Beyond the Wall is intended for those who have already read the books that Game of Thrones is based on. So, unless you were wondering why Shireen was singing Patchface’s song, you should probably skip this post.

Bob: Stannis.

I know you were a little jazzed up by all the new stuff that was in this episode with the least exciting candidate to be king. I thought it was interesting getting a deeper look into the last surviving Baratheon brother’s home life, but I was a little ambivalent about it all too.

It seems like the producers were trying to build a little sympathy for the cold man. Let’s have him admit his infidelity! Let’s show his crazy ass wife and her jarred dead babies (which was by far the creepiest thing this show has produced, and that includes a shadow monster coming out of… where it came out)! Alright, so it makes Stannis look a little less like a jerk, but you know what? I like that Stannis is a jerk. Isn’t the appeal of the character his complete lack of tact and generally surly attitude?

Tell me how wrong I am.

Ivey: Let me preface my response with reminding you that I think Stannis is probably the most boring “main” character in the entirety of the series, followed closely by his BFF Davos Seaworth. I’ve always thought Stannis was a fairly rotten leader/father/husband/whatever, and will make an even more rotten King. But I’m not sure I ever thought he was a “jerk.” The only thing I ever thought, “Hey, that’s a major dick move,” was his punishing Davos after the smuggler saved his bacon … erm onions.

But other than his decision to go North and save the Wall, I can’t exactly say he’s been the type of character to inspire a following — from his actual men or people reading the books. This week, though, meeting Shireen and Selyse colored his character just a little bit better in my eyes. You’re right: the baby-corpses were easily the most disturbing images I’ve seen on my television in a long time — and that includes eating while watching Bones. Then, we meet Shireen, a character that is nearly a complete opposite from both of her parents. It is weird to think that a child that sweet could have grown up in a household that cold.

When you add up a batshit crazy wife — and let’s define “batshit crazy” as Lysa Arryn x 3 — and a daughter fraught with Greyscale but is likely the only character in all of Westeros with her innocence still intact … yeah, I see Stannis a little differently than I did Saturday.

Bob: Perhaps “jerk” was the wrong word, but I would call Stannis arrogant, entitled, distant, terse, and … nope, he’s a jerk. All those things add up to jerk. I say that in the nicest possible way, though. I can remember reading A Dance with Dragons and laughing at some of his lines because they were so quintessentially Stannis. He’s an unfeeling oaf who probably has the best claim to the throne and weakest amount of support.

Oh, and helping his red priestess conjure up a shadow demon to stab his own brother in the back … you didn’t find that to be a bit of a dick move?

I’m not sure everyone interpreted the scenes from the episode as you did, though. He was certainly not a warm and loving father with his sweet little scaly daughter, and he only went to see his wife (after a very lengthy absence) to satisfy his own guilt. Some fans I spoke with thought the extra focus on Stannis just cemented his jerky attitude. It didn’t build any sympathy for him, but just made him appear as unsympathetic as ever.

Ivey: You raise a fair point. Fratricide by vagina-shadow-monsters probably should be tossed in the “dick move” category … but, remember: Renly ate a peach. A peach! Dude was just asking for it. He might as well have just said, “Please, Red Lady: kill me with your nether regions.”

Listen, I’m not saying that Stannis is now the shining example of what every man, woman and child in Westeros should aspire to be (An aside: Is there any one character that we can point to as that person that all of Westeros should look up to? [Bob: Ned Stark.] Yeah, how well did that work out for him?). Through five books and a season and a half of television, I never cared for Stannis because George R. R. Martin never, at least in my eyes, gave me a reason to. Jaime’s redemption arc has begun on the show. Tywin Lannister saved his family’s name and station while being crapped on by his king. And by the time we know what Reek rhymes with, we even feel sorry for him. But other than Ramsay Bolton — the one character in the series I think is evil incarnate — we’re given little to find redemptive in Stannis. These few moments represent more of that than I had seen previously.

Bob: I don’t know. I think you’re oddly biased to many characters in the novels … as is your right, but I just didn’t see these scenes as changing my opinion of the man. If anything, his frank discussion with his young daughter, telling her that he locked up her “friend” for being a traitor, was one of those classic Stannis moments that made me chuckle.