Game of Thrones producers David Benioff and Dan Weiss, along with episode director Alex Graves have been talking up the final episode of the season like they’ve never done before. If we believed everything we heard, “Children” might be more than “Baelor,” “Blackwater” and “The Rains of Castamere” combined. But when the final credits rolled, the episode might have provided more surprises for book readers than it did for show watchers.

These surprises were the of changes from George R. R. Martin’s source material. We here at Beyond the Wall have been universally supportive of these changes through the first four seasons, but “Children” had more diversions — large and small — than any episode that came before it. How did all of these surprises play out, and how will they change thing moving forward?

Bob: This had to have been the most hyped finale of Game of Thrones yet. I think I saw more articles and interviews about it than in any other year, and as the show continues to grow in popularity, it shouldn’t be a tremendous surprise. It was also clear to anyone who had read the novels that there was going to be a lot more action in this finale than we have been used to. Going into it, I was figuring there were going to be a few surprises for us book readers, and I was not let down.

The attack of the wights was maybe my favorite action sequence of the whole series (even with the awesomeness of the battle at The Wall). The special effects were top-notch, I loved the visuals of all the snow and ice, and because there were fewer characters the stakes seemed higher to me than with the giant battles. Plus, there were living skeletons bursting out of the ground — that shit is scary! … and Children of the Forest shooting fireballs out of their hands — that shit is awesome!

Ivey: Funny you should say that, Bob. Little about that scene felt “right” to me. Were those wights in the sense of what we’ve seen before? I’ve always compared them to zombies … the skeleton monsters that we saw were much quicker and frankly much more deadly than the creatures we’ve seen before. And those fireballs? I share your WTF reaction, but probably for different reasons. Who knew the Children had that kind of power (and considering that, why the hell aren’t they still in power?)

One of the twists I didn’t see coming was the meeting between Team Brienne and Team (the) Hound. I really liked Arya and Brienne sizing each other up. There are several female warriors in the series, but they never really meet. The look on Brienne’s face as she realized exactly who she was looking at was incredibly well-played … and that might be the best one on one fight this show has seen since Jaime and Brienne met on the bridge so many episodes ago.

Bob: Before the episode, there was some speculation that the Hound might be meeting up with Brienne in the finale and I just couldn’t imagine how that would work out with those characters coming together, but I think the show really pulled it off. It was a fantastic fight, and I love that it showed just how scrappy and unhinged Brienne can get. We haven’t really seen that from her before, but it sheds some nice light on just how seriously she takes her mission (even if she has been in the presence of Arya and Sansa and managed to lose each of them). I believe that a lot of the desperation that we saw from her at the end of the fight was her drive to get to Arya and see that she was safe.

With her mission no closer to being completed, I’m very interested to see how her story progresses into next season. It is most likely going to stray from the novels even more as there doesn’t appear to be any rush to get to a Lady Stoneheart introduction. I saw that a lot of fans were upset that there was no appearance by Catelyn’s water-bloated corpse to end the season (as it ended Storm of Swords). It didn’t bother me. In fact, I think I was more excited for the reveal at the end of last season (I was convinced it was going to happen then), even though it probably made more sense to happen this year (even though it didn’t).

Ivey: I can’t argue with that at all. I really thought we would see unCat (my favorite nickname) in the season’s final scene, and the disappointment did change my appreciation of the episode, fair or unfair. That being said, the reason I was hoping to see it would be to simply to see one last major swerve that show-watchers wouldn’t see coming. It’s the last major, out-of-left-field twist that involves existing characters. As far as a long-term plot arc, though, I never really cared much for the character. I don’t really think that she will play a big role in the endgame of Martin’s series, and as such, she is easily cut from the show. With so much material left and someone — be it HBO or the producers — trying to set an end date for the series, a great deal of story will find itself on the cutting room floor (See also: Most if not all of the new Iron Islanders).

But I have to admit that this is probably the first time that changes to the story have bothered me more than not. From unCat’s lack of appearance and the subtle (but important to character development) changes to the exchanges between Tyrion and his brother and father in this episode, to the glimpse into the world of the White Walkers earlier this season, the show is really beginning to see some creep between the show and the series. We’ve always been supportive of these changes, but I’m curious just how different things will be at the end of the two stories.

Bob: My guess? Things will be very, very similar at the end of the two stories. The producers keep making a point of saying that they are very cognizant of the destinations and fiddle with how their characters get there. I think the only thing that could really de-rail the story to a large degree is if Martin changes something in his end game without telling the showrunners.

Things are going to get really dicey as we move forward and the show runs out of material from the novels. It’s going to be very interesting to see what happens then. Does the show take some time off (aging child actors be damned), do they just take their own path, or do they end the show prematurely for lack of source material? Hopefully we won’t have to find out and Martin will finish his series before it becomes an issue.

Each year, Game of Thrones’ ninth episode is generally “the big one.” Season one gave us Ned’s beheading in “Baelor,” two was “Blackwater” and last year was the Red Wedding. In the fourth season, we’ve already seen a King poisoned, Lysa sent flying and a Viper squashed … so when producers David Benioff and D. B. Weiss said that episodes nine and ten would be equally as big, we had to know they were bringing out the big guns.

“The Watchers on the Wall” represents the first time since “Blackwater” that an episode has focused on a single geographical location — and thus story (I mean, only five names in the open credits is a record). Considering that and the nature of the episode itself, the two hours of television have been compared extensively online. Most of the talk has been that “Blackwater” is the better of the two, but one of our Clackers disagrees

Ivey: So, Game of Thrones episode nine … the place on my schedule with the words “Shit’s gonna get real” pencilled in. I thought “The Watchers on the Wall” was phenomenal; it just might possibly be my favorite episode of the series. Sure, there’s a lot of great candidates, but there was something about the small moments this week that just rang true for me.

Ser Alliser proving that while he is a certified ass, he is nothing if not a Man (with a capital M) of the Night’s Watch. Sam and Maester Aemon’s quiet conversation about love before the battle began. Pyp and Sam. Janos the craven. Sam the slayer. Jon the commander. Edd the leader. And Grenn, poor Grenn, a man who knew he was being sent to die and nonetheless stood his ground.

Bob: Wow. That’s very … emphatic. You think it might be your favorite episode of the show; I’m not sure it would crack the top 15 of my list. Not that it was bad episode, because it certainly wasn’t. It was great, don’t get me wrong. I just don’t watch this show for the action sequences. They may have been fantastic in this episode (and for my money the action was better than in “Blackwater”), but I much rather watch Varys blathering on about court politics than Jon Snow swinging Longclaw around. These big fights are fun every now and then, though, and they are a bit of a rarity on the show, so I have no cause for complaint.

As you say, the production was quite impressive during the episode, and I would be shocked if Neil Marshall doesn’t get an Emmy nod for his superlative work (though he’s going to have some real stiff competition in Cary Joji Fukunaga for his work on True Detective). As impressive as Marshall’s crane shot was, I have to give the nod to the Fukunaga’s amazing long shot in episode 4 “Who Goes There.” The visual effects were also top-notch in this episode too, from the giants to the sick-ass wall scythe, it all looked great.

Honestly, I’m a little disappointed the show decided to humanize Thorne a bit in this episode. I get that they needed to do something to get the audience to cheer for him and not Tormund in that fight (though Blackwater was ostensibly a fight between Joffrey and Stannis — talk about a lose/lose situation), but he’s one of the more hateable characters in the novels — in a good way. I’m a little afraid that he’ll be too soft of a character moving forward … if he’s alive, that is.

Ivey: Yes, arrows from Grenn and his brothers would have been so much more effective than the arrow the giant had already been shot with (in fact, Grenn even mentions that in the tunnel). You do raise a fair point though: if “The Watchers on the Wall” fails on any level, it is because Game of Thrones has spent a great deal less time with the secondary characters on the Wall than they have anywhere else. Pyp was left behind when most everyone else we knew went north for the ranging and Grenn took a bit of a back seat to Dolorous Edd in recent seasons.

There were, though, some great through lines that “Watchers on the Wall” paid off. Obviously the death of Ygritte and Jon’s loss. The burgeoning relationship between Sam and Gilly. The character arc that both Sam and Jon are going through; they’ve become men far different from the boys they were three seasons ago. And there’s always young Ollie, whom we all knew in the back of our minds would avenge his father’s death in this episode.

Bob: Yes, and while I think comparisons between this episode and “Blackwater” are a little misguided, I’m going to jump down that path anyway, as so many seem to be doing it this week. When you compare those character moments to Tyrion rousing the troops and embarrassing Joffrey, or Cersei cowering from the fight, worrying about her fate, I don’t think they hold up. Maybe that’s just me.

Ivey: This is far from the first time — and probably far from the last time — that you have called me misguided, but I guess that is my cross to bear. I like Tyrion, but I don’t think his pep talk was significantly better than Thorne’s (and simply not as good as Grenn’s). And while Cersei’s moment in the Red Keep with Tommen was great, once Tyrion loosed the wildfyre, I never really felt King’s Landing was in jeopardy. “The Watchers on the Wall” did, however, instill that tension.

Game of Thrones returned from it’s annual Memorial Day week off, delivering an incredible episode. Jorah? Ejected from the friendzone. Mole’s Town? Raided. Missandei’s innocence? Lost (Well, a little). Ramsay? No longer a (recognized) bastard. And the bout between the Mountain and the Viper lived up to it’s billing. It was big. It was brutal. And it was the ongoing Princess Bride reference it was always intended to be.

A new piece of material introduced into the show had book readers and show watchers alike scratching their heads. The conversation between Jaime and Tyrion Lannister before the battle that would determine the later’s fate was more than a bit of a swerve. We were all champing at the bit to see the showdown … what was this extended monologue? But that conversation, as much of a non-sequitur as it might have seemed, was a bit of a microcosm of one of the series’ central themes.

Bob: I guess Storm of Swords was so chock full of great moments, that the producers couldn’t wait until episode nine to start the big shocks like they normally do. As if Lysa’s “suicide” weren’t shocker enough, we also got the battle between the Mountain and Oberyn before the penultimate episode of the season (and I think, breaking with tradition, the finale this year will have even more shocking moments than episode nine). It was a couple of the smaller moments in the episode this week that really stuck out to me.

My favorite moment had to be Arya’s reaction (and the Hound’s) to the news that her aunt had died. It was such a perfect spot of writing, highlighting both characters as well as the absurdity and cruelty of Westeros. Sorry Arya, everyone you are related to is dead or missing, but at least the Hound’s plans are fucked!

Ivey: I loved that moment as well. I think the series has handled her journey since King’s Landing so much better than the books did (Arya’s was one of the few storylines in A Clash of Kings that I disliked — especially early on). You are right … this episode was filled with those great “little” moments; the blood leaking through the floorboards in the Mole’s Town brothel, Theon’s attempt to take Moat Cailin and the callback to his last moments in Winterfell.

Bob: The moment that I really want to discuss, though, is the conversation between Tyrion and Jaime in the prison before the trial by combat. On the surface it’s a long fairly meaningless conversation — there are no grand conclusions drawn and a story about crushing bugs seems to go nowhere, but I think there are some deeper meanings in the story, and at the very least, a lot to learn about the characters.

Ivey: It’s ironic that their conversation leads to a cousin, as the beat when Jaime mentions cousin-killing not having its own word was a brilliantly subtle reminder of his past. I was a bit put off by this conversation myself the first time through. Hell, it’s longer than the titular fight between the Mountain and the Red Viper.

But producers David Benioff and D. B. Weiss — the credited writers for the episode — surely didn’t included it on accident, so I began to think about why it was there. Was it a bit of a meta-tease, delaying audiences from getting their visceral satisfaction that was surely soon to come? Or a simple stress-avoidance tactic on Tyrion’s part? As I watched the scene again and again, it was obvious it was deeper than that.

Bob: I feel like the whole story is a metaphor for the series, in a number of different ways. So many of the characters could be a fill-in for cousin Orson, big bullies smashing the weak. It highlights the meaninglessness of so much of the violence and destruction that we have seen on screen. How much of the pain that Joffrey caused was for a reason other than his own amusement? The same question could be asked for Ramsay.

The exchange was the masked wonderings of a man who knows that he is most likely going to die, and soon, and for no good reason. Why does Tywin do what he does? How did he end up a beetle in this game? Jaime has the only answer that can really be given to most of these questions: “I don’t know.”

Ivey: Sure, many characters could be the metaphoric Orson, but whoever is standing in for the dim-witted Lannister, the beetles are always the smallfolk of Westeros. One of Martin’s central themes — especially in A Feast for Crows — is exploring the devastating effect this game of thrones has had on those that didn’t want to play. I always felt that the books beat this point to death, but this was a much more subtle and interesting way to take it.

Bob: Life’s not fair, Tyrion, but at least you didn’t get your head smashed in by The Mountain.

It could be said that Game of Thrones has been treading water these last few weeks, as the show begins to set itself up for the push to the finale. We — or one of us particularly — might have had some problems with last week, but we were unable to come together to work on our post. We are back this week, and were glad to have “Mockingbird” to look at. This week’s episode was filled with several great character beats, which often make for better television than some of the big set pieces we are likely to see in the last three episodes (Which, as a reminder start in two weeks as Game of Thrones takes the weekend off for Memorial Day in the United States).

But first, our regular SPOILER WARNING: Beyond the Wall is a column intended for those that have read the A Song of Ice and Fire series at least once (But, three or four times is OK too). So, if you don’t know why ASOIAF fanboys across the world cried out in anguish when Petyr didn’t say the words, “Only Cat,” then this post is not for you.

Ivey: So while there were few “big” moments in “Mockingbird” (unless you like watching people fly), it was one of my favorite episodes in a couple of weeks. From three great conversations with Tyrion (I particularly liked how the dynamic between he and Bronn allowed for a great piece of subtle acting) to Arya going a little too deep with her discussion of “nothing,” each scene had great weight. I particularly liked the conversation between Dany and Jorah.

Bob: I don’t see her need for justice in this case a sign of impending madness. Certainly, the story may turn in that direction, but compared to what we know of Aerys and even her brother, Dany comes off as a particularly sane individual. It’s been nice having Jorah around during this part of the story, and I always found her casting out of the exiled knight a bit of an over-reaction on her part.

I think I just look on the story decision from a much more practical standpoint. From a TV show perspective, it makes a ton of sense. I fully expect that Jorah will be kicked to the curb by the end of this season, but delaying that plot point has meant there will be much less down time for the character before he can hook up with Tyrion (who has a lot more story to get through before heading across the narrow sea).

Ivey: But she served that justice with Hizdahr’s father already. The man was crucified in the same manner that the Meereenese masters salted Dany’s road. Allowing for his burial was much more about her attempt to begin to control a city she is to rule. I think that’s a big difference from what Jorah talked her out of this week, the outright slaughter of the masters in Yunkai (though, personally I think she’s already given them their one chance, but that’s a different story).

She’s said before this season that Jorah is her most trusted advisor. Sure, Daario is becoming her paramour and Selmy is her protection, but Jorah has been with her the longest. He earned his place when he stood aside and watched her enter Drogo’s pyre, and has solidified it time and time again. We know that soon, however, she will send him off, as a reaction to his spying for Robert Baratheon (Another rash move). I believe Jorah in many ways serves as Dany’s conscience, something she’ll desperately miss once it is gone.

His spying is a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. In the novels, he was outed by Selmy when the old knight revealed his own identity. Since we never met Arristan the Bold, Jorah’s betrayal will have to be revealed in another way. We saw Tywin writing letters earlier this season … will that be how Dany finds out in the series?

Bob: I think that is a safe bet, though I’m a little suspect as to why the heck Dany would believe anything Tywin Lannister has to tell her. Though, Selmy will be there to back up the story if he sees fit.

It’s not often you and I disagree this much, but I think you’re quite wrong about Dany’s motivations with Yunkai being different than the situation with Hizdahr. I think they are almost exactly the same thing. In both cases, she had meted out her justice and in both cases she was talked out of reinforcing that justice. I think her decision regarding Yunkai was all about “ruling” and not fighting, as she has been talking about since she took up residence in that big pyramid. It was about control and building trust, and working the diplomacy of the situation. She has shown that she can sack a city and kill people, she needs to convince herself that she is ready to rule.

Ivey: Yunkai’s latest transgression — returning to slavery — hasn’t been met with any kind of justice yet. I agree that her actions previously with Hizdahr and the goatherd showed a measured hand, but I’d argue that they are much different situations. Her reaction to Yunkai was not, deciding to kill the masters first, ask questions later. Selmy couldn’t keep her from crucifying the masters of Meereen, but Jorah could avert the slaughter of Yunkai’s. What happens when he’s not around the next time?

Bob: We’ll just have to see. Is she growing as a character and learning to rule? Or does she really just need an angel on her shoulder talking her down from her Targaryen instincts?

A week after Game of Thrones provided a look in the world of the White Walkers in a level of a detail that author George R. R. Martin’s series hasn’t yet provided. We have been exploring the myriad changes that producers David Benioff and DB Weiss have made to the story throughout the adaptation, but the scene with the White Walkers is the standout example that Season Four has seen the most changes.

But before we jump into that, our usual SPOILER WARNINGS. Beyond the Wall is a column written by those who’ve read the books for those who have read the books. So if you didn’t react to Petyr’s introduction of Alayne with, “wait, niece?” then this post isn’t for you.

Bob: I’ve heard some mixed reviews about this week’s episode … at least from the small sample size of my Game of Thrones friends that I talk to every week. I, for one, thought it was a pretty good episode. I’m always a fan of the scheming and politics, which took up a large chunk of the show this week, but what I really want to talk about is the last half of the episode, and specifically Jon’s siege of Craster’s Keep.

Game of Thrones has been such a faithful adaptation of George R. R. Martin’s novels to date, it was a little refreshing to get some real new and unique material on the show. (From the previews for next week, it looks like we are going to get some more, learning about Yara’s little adventure that began in the finale last year). I really enjoyed the sequence north of the Wall, with Jon and other crows laying waste to their traitorous brothers, and Bran and his gang escaping the clutches of Locke. It felt like a fun diversion and I enjoyed it. I also thought the writers did an excellent job in creating another near-reunion for the Stark (or quasi-Stark) clan.

Ivey: Count me in the group of people who didn’t necessarily love this episode. I too enjoy the politicking and such, but “First of His Name” was the first episode this season — and well into last season — that felt like filler to me. Sure, some things I was looking forward to happened (Littlefinger and Sansa’s arrival at the much-different-looking Eyrie for one), but it almost felt like this episode was just checking boxes on a list … at least until they got to Craster’s Keep.

I was a little confused by some of the things that we saw. Cersei being the first Lannister to mention the pairing of Margaery and Tommen didn’t feel in-character to me. Maybe if it had come after her conversation with Tywin — and what the hell is up with the Lannister’s being broke — it would have made more sense. Regardless, Margaery might be playing the game (of thrones) better than anyone at this point.

But all of my problems disappeared the minute the story shifted north of the Wall. The only bad part about adding Burn Gorman to the cast was that they only gave him two episodes to really shine.

Bob: Karl couldn’t get a sword through the head fast enough for my liking. His time was short-lived, but he had to be one of the more detestable characters we have seen in Westeros.

I’ve always wondered if the show is too faithful to the source material. As you say, sometimes it feels like there is a checklist that the show is running through. I’ve always been a fan of the departures and would honestly love to see more of them. One of the things I love about The Walking Dead is just how different it is from the comic books it is based upon, while still managing to hit all the major plot points. Yes, sometimes the characters involved in those plot points are different, but the impact and emotion is always spot on. Heck, the most popular character on the show isn’t even in the comic books. I really wouldn’t mind seeing more changes in Game of Thrones. Granted, the fan base is far more difficult to please, but I’d still be all for it.

I think we’ll find out soon what the real story with Shae is this season, but I think it would be kind of fun if she really did get on that boat headed across the narrow sea. We know that Tyrion is headed over there soon enough, wouldn’t it be an interesting change if he met her over there and they traveled together on his adventure in Essos? Yeah, I doubt it will happen, and if it did, I doubt it would be well received, but the Tyrion/Shae relationship has felt so different to me on screen than on the page, the change almost makes sense.

Ivey: Shae’s betrayal of Tyrion was a lot harder to swallow in the books than I think it will be if it happens similarly on the show. Shae’s relationships — both with Tyrion and Sansa — were much different on the page. And while Tyrion tried to burn their relationship down to the ground to get her to leave, the kind of love that we were lead to believe Shae had runs a little deeper than that.

I don’t particularly like Shae … either version. But I will be a little sad if her story plays out the same in the series. But is that the kind of sweeping change I’d want to see? Probably not. I’m much more intrigued by the butterfly effect that minor changes might have down the road. The Lannister’s are broke? Yara is leading a rescue mission? Jorah still hasn’t been outed as a former Baratheon spy? These are the things that interest me more.

Bob: Yes, those are all changes, but … honestly, I don’t see how any of the three is going to amount to anything in the long run. Those are some small-ass butterflies.

With the shock of the Purple Wedding and the controversy of the scene in the Great Sept of Baelor (hopefully) in the rear view mirror, this week’s installment of Game of Thrones was groundbreaking in other ways. While still containing some material that was born out of existing books in George R. R. Martin’s novels, “Oathkeeper” easily has the most changed/tweaked/added/completely-bonkers-new material we’ve ever seen in one episode. From Bran and company showing up at Craster’s Keep to the delayed reveal of Jorah’s early betrayal, it’s becoming more clear that David Benioff and D.B. Weiss will be taking some liberties … and the word “liberties” doesn’t even begin to cover that final sequence.

Before we dive down that particular rabbit hole, first our weekly SPOILER WARNING. Beyond the Wall is a column presented by readers of the novels for readers of the novels. So if you weren’t wondering why Jorah didn’t smell like Mereenese sewage by the end of this episode, this post is not for you.

Bob: Holy crapballs, dude. How about those last five minutes this week? I don’t think anyone saw a little trip into the heart of White Walker territory coming. It seems like we got a little glimpse into the future of the novels with the ending of episode four. As the series quickly (very quickly) catches up to the novels, it’s going to be happening more and more, but I think this is the first time we’ve really seen something that felt like a spoiler for the books.

Perhaps this is just a case of poor reading comprehension, as Craster’s sons being turned into White Walkers (or, Others, as they are referred to on the page), is pretty well documented. In one of Samwell’s chapters in A Storm of Swords, he encounters some of the eldest of Craster’s wives who warn him about the fate of Gilly’s baby if he doesn’t save it:

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.” – Samwell II, A Storm of Swords

The White Walker reveal shouldn’t be all that shocking, but to get a glimpse of the Walkers in their own environment, complete with big scary tower thing, and weird ritualistic ring of ice thing was pretty awesome. At least in my opinion. What camp are you in Ivey? Awesome? Or “how dare the show spoil us?”

Ivey: Considering the stance that we have both taken in this column for years, it would be hypocritical of us to be anything but accepting of this, would it not? Like you mentioned, it could just be something that has happened off-page in Martin’s mind, not unlike the transformation of Reek that we saw last season. In that case however, by the time those scenes aired, that arc had been revealed in A Dance With Dragons; the reveal of the Night’s King — which was “confirmed” in an HBO recap before it was quickly removed — is different.

But the question of whether or not this is a spoiler is something that will continue to be debated, and it is far from the last time that audiences will be faced with this scenario. Unless Martin releases Winds of Winter tomorrow, there’s almost no way the television show won’t catch up to the novels at some point.

Bob: I’m still skeptical he finish in two books, but that’s a digression we don’t need to take. Honestly, I think we’ve already been faced with this scenario, as early as season two, and we just haven’t talked about it. I could be dead wrong, but I believe that the visions that Dany had in the House of the Undying, some of which were shared by Bran a couple weeks ago, are a vision of some very late stage action in the story of A Song of Ice and Fire.

Ivey: Was it snow, or was it ash? I think there’s another reading you could take from those two prophetic dreams: Each seems to point to Dany’s dragons laying waste to King’s Landing, but who is to say that she’s controlling them at that point? One of the arcs in A Dance With Dragons is Dany’s fears that she won’t be able to control them as they continue to grow. And her (television) vision of the Red Keep in the House of the Undying isn’t one that had a victorious tone.

Dany is a character whom I think has a good chance of dying in the series’ final act, with her role of bringing the “Fire” of the Ice and Fire dynamic to Westeros. That’s the conflict that I fear will end the series, with the people of Westeros being the caught in the balance.

Bob: Did you just show concern for the smallfolk? Of all the characters in all the novels, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone give a crap about the people of Westeros.

The third episode of Game of Thrones has generated a significant amount of controversy. The less than consensual sex between Jaime and Cersei Lannister caused the Internets to explode with righteous indignation Sunday night. Whether people were pissed about the change — or perceived change — from the books, or just unhappy to see a character supposedly in a redemptive arc completely switch course, critics — disproportionately more than fans — were not happy.

Before we get into that, however, our regular SPOILER WARNING. Beyond the Wall is a column intended for readers of the A Song of Ice and Fire novels. So, if you weren’t disappointed that Daairio wasn’t strong or Belwas-y this week, then this post is not for you.

Ivey: Despite the controversy “Breaker of Chains” has stirred up in the Game of Thrones fandom this week, I still think that the changes incorporated into the show have been positive, on the whole. Case in point: Podrick Payne is an infinitely more interesting character on the screen than on the page. His scene with Tyrion was easily my favorite of the episode, especially the Imp’s final words to his squire.

Bob: Well, I wonder if a knighthood would have actually been given to him … though a Lannister does pay his or her debts, so it might have been his for the taking. In either case, that’s out of the question at this point. I think Tyrion knows all too well that as soon as Pod turned down the offer to testify against him, Pod was as good as dead. And how sad! Poor Pod.

I agree with you, he’s been so great on the show and I thought the scene between him and Tyrion was the highlight of the episode; there was real genuine emotion between the two of them. I think it’s the beginning of the end, so to speak, for Tyrion in King’s Landing. For the viewer who hasn’t read the books, this should serve as a nice, small moment of finality that signifies this isn’t a situation that Tyrion can talk his way out of. He’s in some deep, deep shit.

The whole thing makes me wonder if there is some deeper statement that can be made about loyalty in Westeros. Namely, there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of it, and when someone is loyal, it doesn’t seem like things end up very well for that someone. We know Westeros is a harsh place, but can’t a little loyalty get rewarded?

Ivey: Actually, I think that Pod’s disposition might be the last thing Tyrion gets to control this season, but we’ll see what happens next week. As for your question, we haven’t seen a great many examples of true loyalty in the series, and the few that we have haven’t ended particularly well.

Davos Seaworth is a character beloved in the books that I never really connected to (though ironically the things that endears him to fans are the things that I appreciate about Pod in the show), and is probably the gold standard for loyalty in the series. Stannis is probably the last lord in Westeros that I’d swear allegiance to, but Davos has stood behind him, even as Stannis cut off his fingers, thrown him in a cell and threatened his life. Davos’ loyalty has been repaid with … well, onions.

We’ve seen loyalty to things beyond individuals repaid in similar ways. Jeor Mormont dedicates his life to the noble institution that is the Night’s Watch only to be murdered for his trouble. The Hound was loyal to House Lannister (for reasons I never really comprehended) but was treated like trash time and time again. And nearly every single soldier we’ve seen in the series has sworn loyalty to the houses and lords of Westeros only to be used and disposed of as pawns on a board.

Bob: Even Jorah (aside from his little stint as a King’s Landing spy) has been as dedicated as one could be to Dany, only to fall into the bottomless pit of the friendzone. Poor guy. Though, I really want someone to put together a montage of all the reaction takes from Jorah whenever Dany says something great about Daario. You can practically hear his heart snapping on the screen. I love it.

The most shining example of loyalty punished, of course, has to be Eddard Stark. The only thing loyalty got him was a missing head. George R. R. Martin has certainly created a cruel world for his characters to navigate, and while it does make for good TV, I have to say it’s a bit bleak. Maybe not The Walking Dead levels of bleak, but bleak none the less.

We’re in a unique position with Game of Thrones; the books haven’t been finished, so even for the die hard fans there is mystery. I have no idea what the end game for the series is going to be. There are still a ton of moving parts, and I am not convinced they are even going to come together before the end. What I really wonder about these days, though, is if there is going to be any sort of “good” prevailing over evil. I’m not certain there will be. It seems to me that Martin has set out to break many of the stereotypes that plague bad fantasy writing, and let’s face it, the worst of them all is good triumphing over evil. So maybe at the end of the day, the loyal characters are going to be the chumps and those willing to do what it takes will win the Game of Thrones.

The word “gamechanger” is thrown around a little too often these days. Game of Thrones, though, is a show that establishes its right to use it time and time again. “The Lion and the Rose” was just the next in a lineage of episodes that includes “Baelor,” “Blackwater” and “The Rains of Castamere” … and we are only two episodes into this season!

But before we get into that, our regular SPOILER WARNING. Beyond the Wall is a column that is written for book-readers by book-readers. So if you aren’t a fan of the hairstyles of the highborn ladies of Westeros, then this post isn’t for you.

Ivey: Well, that happened. There are a couple of moments that book-readers have been looking forward to … and for my money, the Purple Wedding was even higher on the list than the Red Wedding (at least I could take some pleasure in this death). Joffrey was long established in both the series and the novels as the most evil man in Westeros (I think an argument could be made that he was even worse in the show; just ask Ros). But his death leaves that title empty; who is going to slide into that role as the show’s primary antagonist?

I think one of the most obvious candidates is granddaddy himself, Tywin Lannister. He had a hand(!) in the carnage of the Red Wedding. He is also probably one of the scariest guys we’ve seen yet; he was the only person to bring Joffrey to heel. Hell, he’s got a song written about the evil shit he’s pulled in the past. And Tywin is probably the best strategic thinker in all of Westeros (not named Tyrion).

Bob: First off, you’re a total sexist for talking about the most evil man and not the most evil person. Are you saying a woman in Westeros is not capable of such horrid deeds?

Two men who bargained with Tywin are far better candidates in my estimation. Walder Frey and Roose Bolton are all the things Tywin Lannister is (except less smart) as well as being traitors. They betrayed the king in the north and broke all the rules of hospitality at the Red Wedding. These are big no-nos in the world of Westeros. We’ve seen Frey’s complete lack of respect for the Starks and even the war throughout the run of the show. He is the epitome of selfishness.

I think the better candidate, however, would be his partner in wedding planning, Roose Bolton. He was Robb’s right hand man for much of the war, advising the young king and battling right beside him. Frey had all the reason in the world to be pissed at the Starks and Robb in particular, but Roose seemed to turncoat just because the tide of the war was turning. He’s a coward and an opportunist, and he is not a man I would turn my back to.

Ivey: It isn’t that I’m sexist. There are two female candidates for this list, right? Cersei and Melisandre. Frankly, I don’t think either of them are up there compared to any of the folks we’ve listed (or those that barely didn’t make the cut). Cersei is the mother of madness, not madness herself, and I think that Mel’s motivations are so much more complex than most of the characters on this show (I think, from a certain point of view, she might be the antithesis of evil).

Roose was the sworn bannerman of Robb himself. He sat in on his war councils and was a general — or the Westerosi version thereof — of the Northern army … and he put a knife through Robb’s heart. But if you try hard enough, you can see Roose’s motivations: He wanted to become Warden of the North after years of being beholden to House Stark. In Walder’s eyes, the insult he suffered when Robb married Talisa was just the final in the long line he had endured, first from the Tullys and now the Starks.

No, I think the most deserving candidate for “Most Evil Man PERSON in Westeros” is a boy whose only motivation is that he’s a sociopath. Ramsay Snow’s torture of Theon Greyjoy has been extreme and unnecessary (even though seeing it on the screen was disturbing, I think it might have been worse in the books). With the other candidates, there might have been a method to their madness. With Ramsay, there might be a madness in his method.

Bob: Alright, I can’t argue with that. That dude’s a bastard.

Ivey: I see what you did there. The scariest thing about Ramsay though? I think he’s going to become much, much worse.

Game of Thrones is back, and back with a bang. Social Media references? Check. Record setting ratings? Check? Fifth AND sixth season pickup? Check and check. “Two Swords” was one hell of a premiere. In the past, seasons premieres have been a hodgepodge of catchup and world-building.

We’re getting to the point where there isn’t a great deal of world left to build. However, as George R. R. Martin has been trying to teach us through each of his novels, there will always be new, major characters to kill introduce. In the first three seasons, the show has proven itself particularly adept at bringing these new characters into the mix, both narratively and procedurally. The fourth season premiere’s introduction of Oberyn Martell is just the latest example of that ability.

Bob: One thing that has continually impressed me about Game of Thrones is how consistently they are able to get the characters from the novels perfectly right on the show. Sometimes this is through an impeccably cast actor who looks exactly like the character from the books, and sometimes it’s just the writing on the show (as well as the acting) that captures the essence of a character and translates it on the screen.

I was amazed watching the premiere this week to see how well the writers were able to introduce Oberyn to the viewers. In just a few short scenes, we were able to see into the heart of the man, learn about his past (as well as some more history of King’s Landing and Robert’s Rebellion), gain some insight into his motivations, and learn what he likes in the bedroom. It was truly a great introduction to a character that is certain to be a fan favorite (if he isn’t already after the first episode of the new season).

Game of Thrones has always done a wonderful job at introducing characters. From Ned Stark to Littlefinger to the Blackfish, it only takes a scene or two to truly establish who the character is and what motivates them. They actually did a pretty good job of introducing Oberyn before we even saw him on screen. It wasn’t even what was said about him as much as Tyrion’s reaction to Doran Martell’s skipping the wedding, and him sending Oberyn in his stead.

Bob: That is where I think the production of Game of Thrones excels over other shows. It’s so easy to be lazy and fall back to exposition as a crutch. Game of Thrones has a very difficult task of taking thousands of pages of exposition and making them interesting for a TV viewer. That’s no small task, and the writers continue to do it extremely well. They’ve become so good at it, in fact, that they don’t have to rely on naked ladies to make it interesting. Ok, so there was a bit of naked lady this week when Oberyn was introduced … but only a little!

Game of Thrones has a very difficult task of taking thousands of pages of exposition and making them interesting for a TV viewer.A lot of the character introductions (or at the very least character development) in the first season were centered around “sexpositon,” but it’s hard to argue that it didn’t work. It coined a term, got the show plenty of attention, and did the most important thing: introduced us to some characters in an interesting way.

To your point, the expert acting and writing is able to take a scene like Tyrion waiting for Doran and add nuance to it so that we learn something about the Dornish and Oberyn without even meeting the character yet.

Bob: Unfortunately, there aren’t all that many important characters left to introduce. Who knows if the likes of the Greyjoys, Arianne, or Jon Connington will be on the show at all. I certainly hope we get to see them, or the likes of them, as new characters are always a fun bit of excitement when they show up.

Ivey: Considering how the producers have talked about wrapping up the show after the seventh or eighth season, I think that the last “half” of the show will be an exercise of “What was cut” vs. “what was introduced.” We might get one new or two major characters out of Dorne (Doran in particular) and Young Griff/Connington, but that’s about it. But the show has also done a pretty good job at killing even more people than GRRM, so who knows?

Winter is finally upon us. This Sunday, the fourth season premiere of Game of Thrones will finally be upon us. If you’re half as excited as we are, then we’re twice as excited as you are. There are some awesome things left from the balance of A Storm of Swords, plus it wouldn’t surprise anyone if David Benioff and Dan Weiss started dipping into A Feast for Crows for some material.

But fans of the show who’ve not read the books — you know, the types of fans our spoiler warning is about to ward off — don’t care nearly as much about the source material as we do. There is one very important thing about that category of fan, however: There’s a metric crap-ton of them. The series has opened up the world of Westeros to many more fans than the novels ever did. What is it about the show that is able to turn source material from such a specific genre to a worldwide phenomenon?

Our regular SPOILER WARNINGS are in effect … though admittedly, those spoilers are a lot less severe than they usually are, as we are discussing the show in the context of popular culture and not really delving into specific plot points. But, just to be safe: If you don’t know why purple is a much more enjoyable color than red, you should probably save this article for after you’ve read the novels.

Bob: Let’s call a spade a spade, Ivey, or in this case: a couple of nerds a couple of nerds. It’s no big surprise that you and I, with our nerdish tendencies, are fans of what is assuredly the greatest fantasy series to ever be on television. What continues to amaze me, however, is how many non-genre fans are really getting into Game of Thrones. For crying out loud, my mom is a huge fan. Aside from the unlikely fans in our lives, the ratings for the show continue to increase, and it’s hard to avoid hearing references to the show all around the zeitgeist — jokes in other series, news folks mentioning the show, Madonna dressing up as Dany for Purim; Game of Thrones is everywhere.

Before we head into the new season (and perhaps even bigger ratings), I thought it might be fun to talk about what we think makes this show so popular with so many different people.

I think one of the reasons is the water cooler nature of a lot of the plots on the show. Behind all the pretty costumes and dragons, Game of Thrones is really just a well written soap opera. There are beheadings, betrayals, scandal, murder, war — all the things that have people buzzing Monday mornings. At the heart of the show there are compelling characters and a plot so twisty that the show demands to be watched, and not DVR’ed or streamed or watched later On Demand.

Ivey: Me? A nerd? What do you think I’m sitting here in my Nerd HQ “Nerd” shirt right now or something? (Because I totally am). My mother, however, definitely does not watch the show. Too many beheadings, boobs, betrayals, boobs, scandal, boobs, murder, boobs and war. But I think if she could look past all of the … scandal … she’d enjoy the show to.

It’s funny you reference GoT as being a soap opera. I’d argue that a lot of primetime television — network or otherwise — is at its core a soap opera. But this show shares a trait with the daytime variety, one I don’t think most people make the connection to. You and I — and the millions of fans of George R. R. Martin’s source material — know that the author is not afraid of killing any character or twisting any plot … genre conventions be damned. The Good Wife’s current major arc aside, there’s nothing like that on television today.

Just look back at early in the first season. If viewers had to guess who the main characters of the show were, that list would likely be headed by (see what I did there) Ned Stark, Viserys Targaryen, Khal Drogo and Robert Baratheon. None of those characters lived past the season finale. Audiences have experienced those deaths and now they have experienced the Red Wedding. They’re about to get twisted up again (having seen the first three episodes and being bound by HBO’s even-more-strict spoiler policy, I can’t tell you if I’ve seen the Purple Wedding … but it’s awesome). Game of Thrones breaks all of the rules, and fans love the show for it.

Bob:  I may have talked about everything that is behind those pretty costumes, but I think they are a huge part of the appeal. Not just the costumes, but the entire production value on Game of Thrones is second to none. I think anything becomes more watchable when it looks so nice.

Production value goes beyond sets and costumes though. Just about everything on this show is impeccable — the casting, the writing, the directing, the plotting, it’s all superior. Truly, when you put all of that together, the show is able to transcend the “fantasy” genre. I think you see it happening more and more on television and in movies. The Walking Dead is doing it to some extent, sending the zombie genre on its head. Comic book movies are doing it on the big screen. Remember when superheroes were just for nerds?

Ivey: I remember those times. It was probably during that same time period where Michael Noble talked about going to SDCC without a quarter of a million people getting in his way. But you are absolutely right about the depth of talent that the cast and crew has. Just look at some the directors this show has been fortunate enough to use: Neil Marshall came in on like five minutes notice, and gave us “Blackwater.” Alan Taylor went from GoT to one of Marvel’s tentpole releases, Thor. And Alex Graves, who cut his teeth directing some of my favorite episodes of the West Wing — and showrunning the criminally underrated Journeyman — is directing four episodes this season.

Bob: Also, the gratuitous amounts of sex and violence don’t hurt the ratings either.

Ivey: Yeah, there’s that too.