For the inaugural installment of our debate column, Debbie and I decided to take on one of the quintessential arguments that revolves around one of our favorite shows, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Who was the better character, Spike or Angel? Over in our vampire poll Spike is kicking the stuffing out of Angel, so it shouldn’t come as a huge surprise that both Debbie and I came down on the side of Captain Peroxide.
Bob:
For me this is a no-brainer. It’s Spike all day, everyday and twice on Sunday. He was a vastly more entertaining (and dare I say interesting) character than Angel. He wasn’t the whiny, broody self-hating vamp that Angel was so much of the time. He was funny, morally ambiguous a lot of the time, and didn’t need to lose his soul to become a bad ass. Angel certainly became a much better character when he branched out to his own show, but he and Buffy always kind of annoyed me.
I know a lot of ladies prefer the sappy love that Buffy and Angel had, but I really appreciate the depth and complexity of the Spike / Buffy relationship. I think it was a more adult couple for a more adult Buffy in the later seasons of the show. Angel was akin to puppy love for me. It was totally saccharine, in my opinion. Spike and Buffy, though, that was passion and angst and lust. It made for better TV, if you ask me.
Debbie:
I have to agree with you that the Buffy / Angel relationship was mostly eye-rolling. At first it was a bit exciting; after all, they did blaze new territory (well, maybe nothing that Dark Shadows didn’t do). And it was worth it for moments like the dance with Angelus in season two’s “I Only Have Eyes for You” and when she stabbed him into hell at the end of season two (“Becoming”).
The good thing about Angel is the way he played off of the other characters in his own show (oh, and the time he became human because that was some of the best writing / acting, truly standout: “I Will Remember You,” season 1, episode 8), especially Doyle and Wesley. The fact that he would occasionally turn into Angelus and make us all grip the edge of our seats was fairly awesome as well.
But Spike was the man … or the vamp, as the case may be. It was a privilege to watch him wrestle with his feelings, his love for Buffy, his soul, all of it. And when he popped up on Angel he breathed new life into the series. Spike was a magical character, one of the special ones that you’ll only meet a handful of times in your TV-viewing life.
Bob:
Okay, see, I totally thought that you were an Angel lover. I guess that’s the other sister. In any case, it’s clear that we pretty much agree on the issue. There’s nothing wrong with Angel (there were even times that I liked his show better than Buffy), but there was definitely something special with Spike.
Spike had a really nice character arc throughout his time on Buffy too. Angel was pretty much Angel all the time (unless he was Angelus of course). There were lots of different Spikes, all of them great: the slightly pathetic, crazy villain of season two and three; the neutered, comic relief of season four and five; the complicated love interest of season six; and the tortured vampire with a soul (the other tortured vampire with a soul) and anti-hero of season seven.
Debbie:
There’s a lot I like about Angel (and David Boreanaz) but I tell ya, when he chose to love, he really knew how to pick ‘em. A slayer, Cordelia, Connor? I liked him better broody! I do think the other sister is a bit of a fangirl … not that there’s anything wrong with that….
The viewers just spent eight years watching Angel trying to get over himself. Redemption doesn’t have to be self-deprecating … see Spike.
- – -
Where do you guys come down on the issue?
Clacked by Bob Degon
on Jun 16, 2010 @ 12:00 EST5EDT
I liked Angel, mostly because I think that Angel is a far better show than Buffy.
The unfortunate thing about the two characters is that while both vampires with souls (eventually) they play far different roles in the shows.
Spike is the charismatic villain that writers/fans couldn’t get enough of and had some of the most fantastic development of any character in the Buffyverse.
Angel, like Buffy, is the center of his show and mostly unchanging. While he develops and changes, those changes are mostly minute to the primary element of his character: his guilt and redemption.
In any sense, the best of Spike and Angel is in Angel’s fifth season where the two characters played so well off of each other. The clashing of their own insecurities and their contrasting views of heroism made for one of the most interesting seasons of television I’ve ever seen, but it couldn’t have happened without the previous 11 (buffy and angel) season before it.
Okay, so this is a tough call for me. “Angel” is one of my favorite shows of all-time, better than “Buffy” (which I also enjoy quite a lot) because it deals with more mature themes and the ‘adult’ world. And I do prefer the Buffy/Angel relationship to Buffy/Spike, because there was always simply more heart to it. Maybe it’s less realistic for that reason, but I think there’s a reason that star-crossed lovers is a truly classic trope.
Similarly, I like the character of Angel a lot. He went through a journey over 3 seasons of “Buffy” and 5 seasons of “Angel”, and he did exhibit change, not all of it good. We got to see his vulnerable side quite often, as well as the fiercely protective, patronly side (in addition to the romantic as displayed above). He was the hero of his own show for a reason.
However, when I have to choose between Angel and Spike, I still find myself leaning toward Spike. First off, he’s clearly more entertaining (though Angel had some classic moments – “they talk about me in the chatty rooms?”). Additionally, he didn’t spend much time mourning for his past sins upon regaining his soul (the best thing the writers could have done for the character and the shows, by the way) – but he was clearly feeling it nonetheless. Angel wore his grief on his sleeve, but Spike was more subtle. There’s also the fact that when they were human (the first time), William was a much better person than Liam. You’ve got a poet who loves his mother vs. a spoiled, hedonistic dude with daddy issues and probably a few STDs. This allowed vamp Spike to enjoy many of the things in unlife (even if they had a dark twist much of the time), and sort of laugh at the universe (not wanting it to be destroyed), while Angelus only had an appetite for creative destruction (and girls, to an extent).
All in all, I really like both characters, but if I have to pick it’s got to be Blondie-Bear over Captain Forehead.
Also…
In any sense, the best of Spike and Angel is in Angel’s fifth season where the two characters played so well off of each other. The clashing of their own insecurities and their contrasting views of heroism made for one of the most interesting seasons of television I’ve ever seen
I couldn’t agree more. Good stuff.
I agree with everything that adam said. I too liked more angel than buffy, and of course, spike stills the spot light in both shows.
THE BEST CHARACTER IN BUFFY IS SPIKE!!!! he is the best vampire ever! he is so good, cutie, sweet,funny, sexy and hot!! he change for for buffy!!! he love her so much and protected!!
Spike struggled to be better, love buffy with or whithout soul,he did not let her never,he sought to redeem himself,got his soul for love this is the greatest act that all fans can see in all series. Angel dont! he did nothing for her just go and let Buffy. He is good because his soul forces him, but he dont want your soul and not love buffy without it.He did not change for love or redemption. Angel REALY DONT CHANGE!!
SPIKE IS THE BEST BUFFY BOYFRIEND!!! AND THE BEST CHARACTER IN BOTH SERIES!!!!!!! SPIKEEEE FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!
I’ve found that I prefer shows with a female protagonist. I didn’t realize how much it meant to me until I had the Buffy/Angel shows to deal with. I love a show where a tough girl can kick some ass (mentally or physically). Buffy was a good show when it started. Angel was ok for a while there, but then Spike came onto the scene, and the show changed. He is one of the ultimate characters of all time.
I watched Angel in season one, and half of season two, then lost interest. Still watched here and there, but it wasn’t must see. Until Buffy was over and Spike joined the cast. His snarky attitude, hard exterior and ultimately mushy insides were the perfect combination to bring life back to Angel. Not just the show, but the character. Angel was always better with Spike around to pick on his scabs.
This all just pisses me off. If ever a character deserved his own series, it was Spike. Frankly, I’d still watch Marsters as an older vamp (even though vamps don’t age). I’d follow the character to the ends of the earth.
And – I had absolutely no idea you were brother and sister. Really? Where have I been??
Spike ! I love his character more than Angel for many reasons. I don’t really speak English (I’m French) so it’s hard to explain it in good terms, but he has an excellent evolution. His love for Buffy was his light for redemption at the beggining. Even without a soul, I always think he had a human part in him, and that’s why he’s able to love while vampire are usually unable to. Even if he’s not perfect without a soul, he *tries*. He had a sincere friendship with Joyce and Dawn.
His love for Buffy changes him. He tries to become a better man for her, and the change is here. People evolve, they change and they learn. That’s what I love about this character. He has done mistakes, but mistakes are necessary, it’s human ! In order to learn. In both seasons 5 and 6, I think he was divided in two parts in him : the human part, and the demon part. The human part was in love with Buffy, this part of him tries to do things better ; the demon part was darkest, and make him doing mistakes. But he wants an identity, being a man who is unable to hurt the woman he loves. Like he said to Clem : “I’m not human, I’m not a vampire. I’m nothing”. So he makes a choice, and this choice was the human part in him. He decides to recover his soul. Because he knew that it was the right thing to do. From my point of view, it’s just wonderful from a souless vampire ! Because at this point, he kills the demon part in him. He kills the monster who exceeded the limit. Only the human part remains.
And I love SO much the Buffy & Spike relationship (in season 7 as in seasons 5 and 6, each part of the evolution of their relationship was important). It really was an healthy and mature relationship. We see trust, forgiveness (I’ve seen the best as the worst of you, but I learn to trust you again, and I fall in love with you for who you are), support, protection and love. They believed in each other. They defended each other. Buffy allowed to Spike to be better and he became a Champion (in Never leave me : “You risked everything to be a better man. And you can be. You are. You may not see it, but I do. I do. I believe in you, Spike”) and Spike does exactly the same thing for her. He supports her and permits her to find herself, and find the strenght in herself (like in Chosen : “A 100+ years, and there’s only one thing I’ve ever been sure of: you.(…) I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I’ve seen your kindness and your strength. I’ve seen the best and the worst of you. And I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You’re the one, Buffy.”)
They have been the strenght of each other. And Buffy choses him as her Champion (-and not only as her Champion, but it’s another debate).
I know that the poll is about the characters, but Spike’s evolution is bound with his relationship with Buffy. Like Buffy, he tries, he does mistakes, he learns, but he changes and he evolves. That’s why I love his character. And that’s why Spuffy is my number on ship ♥ They had an important impact on each other. They’re not perfect, but they know each other and they know with who they fell in love. And they permit to each other to become better. That’s a mature relationship and my definition of true love. I really don’t see it in another Buffy’s relationship.
So yeah, Spike became a wonderful vampire. He sacrifices himself for the world and for Buffy. In ATS, he stays in L.A and he helps for the Apocalypse. He continues to learn. And that’s the key.
He’s particular in the vampire world, even without a soul, and that’s why he’s a ‘better vampire’ for me…
I hope what I’ve said is understandable, again, sorry for my bad english.
I’ve just got on board with the Buffy series (I’m in the middle of season 4), but needed to check out the community boards on the great debate between Angel and Spike. And I have to say what you wrote is the best thing that I have read on the topic. I can’t wait to see the rest of the series!!!
character wise…SPIKE EVIL SPIKE NOT LOVESICK, PINNING OVER BUFFY, for chrissake he’s a freakin’ VAMPIRE. At least ANGEL had a reason….he had SOUL.
Have you ever watched the show???!! Spike had a soul! He fought for his soul and earned it! While Angel’s soul was only a curse, he never wanted it!!! And Spike was able to love even without a soul. Without his soul Angel/Angelus was nothing, but an evil sadistic monster unable to love!
And Spike earned his soul for Buffy, because he was in love with her and wanted to be a better man for her! Buffy was the love of his life and he did everything for her! EVERYTHING!!!
Who was the one who comforted and loved her in Touched when all of her friends and allies had abandoned her?
Spike!
Who was the one who was beaten and tortured and endured it to keep Buffy’s sister safe?
Spike!
Who stayed with Buffy when her friends dismissed her?
Spike!
Who encouraged her with his speech to continue fighting and to find the scythe?
Spike!
Who was the one who never left her, who treated her with respect, who never gave up on her, who died for her in the end?!
Spike!!!!
And what Angel did for Buffy??? Left her for her “own good” in the end of season 3, he abandoned her in the middle of the apocalypse in the end of season 7… is that a love??? I don’t think so!
Just recently watched re-runs of Buffy/Angel, and really felt like writing in..
My vote..Spike all the way..!!
Cuz, while we’re all talking about how Angel did more good to seek redemption for what he did as Angelus and Spike did not really care a lot about redemption, the more important detail that slips through is the fact that Angel before all the vampire theatrics, even as human, as Liam, was never a good man. Okay, so maybe his father was a tyrant, though that was never clarified, his mother and his sister did nothing to him, and he still walked out on them. All he did was drink and lay around. As Angelus, he did not merely give in to the temptations of evil BECAUSE he was a vampire, but he enjoyed it. Its safe to say he was capable of something so henious even as Liam, but for the fact that guilt is a human feeling he could not do away with unless he was a vampire.
In case of Spike, even in his human days, he was never even slightly to the side of “evil” . Yes, he was quite pathetic and somewhat a loser. But he had a good heart, loved his mother so much so that even losing his soul did not make him lose his feelings for his mother. And even as a Vampire Spike just played along the whole “evil” thing, as he says, in Angel ep. 11(damage), thinking of the whole thing as a “Party”.
And if we see their respective sires, its very logical to say, Darla chose Liam because of who he was, whereas Drusilla merely picked the “first idiot that she met”, further showing, the true William never had any cuelty in him, not as much as Liam did.
Also ever consider what would happen if Angelus had a chip in his head? I’d lay odds, he wouldn’t go fall in love with anybody. He’d probably try to do as much damage as he could without actually doing it himself. And no matter how far he was pushed, Angelus + chip = him getting himself a soul? Doubt it.
Plus Spike acknowledges the fact that he doesn’t deserve buffy, even when he stood by her all the way to the end, and what did Angel do? Dump her. Leave. Come back, “pound on her boyfriend” after he dumped her in the first place. Leave, then come back act all jealous about Spike. And he still thinks he deserves Buffy.
And going back to season 2, the Judge says, Spike still has humanity in him, even when he had no chip or soul, but Angelus was “pure”.
I rest my case.
P.S- Don’t get me wrong, I love Angel, dark, brooding, really cute, and even more Angelus, he’s almost ingeniously cruel, I dig that in a guy (:P), and season 2 with Angelus, was pure heaven, but he got all predictable and boring as both Angel/Angelus, by the end. And when it comes to morality or human goodness, Spike’s a better man by far. Not to mention the god of hotliness..and definitely way more deep and interesting a character.
P.P.S- Anybody else think Spike and Angel together is the best thing ever? Not in a slash way, but still season 5 Angel? Pure bliss.
I’m… extremely irritated right now with the way JW’s season 8 is going and yes, I’ll be the first to admit it, I’m a team Spike fan. One of the beauties of both shows was that even in a crazy world of the supernatural the writers were able to reflect real life tones and issues. I recall the season 3 episode Earshot where our favorite slayer could briefly read minds and she picked up on Jonathan’s plans on going on a shooting spree. The original airing of that episode was pulled because of a real life issue that hit far too close to home, Columbine. They did eventually air it of course and it turned out that Jonanthan only planned to kill himself, not anyone else, but still the similarities were staggering. There are of course other examples from every season but that’s not what this is about, this primarily about relationships and for a guy who’s been in his fair share… yeah there simply isn’t no contest.
Angel and Buffy were great as a young love, and even though it did seem like a lot of it was puppy love it did eventually mature into something real. For example even though it wasn’t physical I’d say their love was much more mature in season 3 than either 1 or 2 and thus much more real and more closely assembling something you’d see in real life. But it was still young, she was still in high school despite having to save the world three times by then. Her youth was further revealed by the mistakes she went on to make in season 4 (Parker anyone?). Despite her growing up much more quickly than a typical girl should ever have to she was still incredibly inexperienced in sorting out her love life, in truth it normally takes a lifetime before a person ever really starts to figure it out.
Which brings us to season 8 and the majority of why I’m so perturbed at the moment (spoilers for season 8 below).
Angel shows up roughly two years after his cameo in Chosen and what? Nevermind his plans as Twilight to have her and him ascend and leave their families behind to fight all of hell’s armies, no matter the people he’s killed, no matter that it’s been… six years since you were in an active relationship with the guy but all of a sudden JW writes that Buffy goes weak in the knees for him and the universe compells the two to have wild earth-shattering sex AFTERWHICH she feels completely satisfied with? I’m 25 right now, I lost my virginity when I was 17 to a girl I loved very much but do you think I’m still holding out hope that we’ll end up together? Or that I’ll jump into bed with her the second I see her and not think afterwards that maybe this wasn’t the best of ideas?
HELL NO, no sane person would. Maybe if me and said girl reconnected at first, went out for a while and so on and so forth then maybe yes but… to do otherwise would be just so out of character both for me and I imagine also for Buffy.
You can only keep claiming your starcrossed or destined to be with someone for so long before eventually you have to turn, look back, and realize that the two of you are completely different people now and that in all honesty you have been different for a long time. Angel fell in love with a girl that’s about as completely different from the woman that Buffy is now.
So does that mean I think she should immediately jump Spike’s bones the moment she sees him? HELL NO but I do believe that the two have a lot less to resolve than her and Angel do. Point blank, JW is about to either make one of the greatest plot twists in comic history or about to make one of his biggest blunders.
News flash, the majority of Buffy fans aren’t for Team Angel – they haven’t been since season 4 when Spike was first teased as a potential LI. Spike wins more polls, has more fansites, more fanfiction than any of the Angel parallels. He’s a richer character and, above all else, he is the underdog. He’s the guy you want to root for! Sorry Joss but Spike may not have stolen the show but he definitely stole our hearts and if you try to switch tracks now you’ll only be delivering something that could be labeled as “bad fanfiction” at best because it won’t be true to the show, like at all. Because as SMG said: “It’s all about the fans.”
/end rant
I am for Spike and here’s why. Spike isn’t that much different as a vampire than he was as a human. He was devoted to the women in his life. As a human, he loved his mother. It was tearing him to pieces watching her die of TB. Yes, he wrote bad poetry but that’s sort of cute. He was attempting to win Cecily over with it until she rejected him. Dru finds him and makes him a vampire. Spike sees this as a way to help him mother rather than watch her suffer. After he turns her, she changes completely. She becomes a cruel monster. Spike kills her rather than leave her this way. He runs around with Dru for over a century doing his best to keep her happy. He doesn’t leave her until they go to South America where she cheats on him. He leaves her but is determined to win her back ( even trying to get a love spell). He meets Buffy again and start to love her. He goes on to do everything to please her…even killing Dru if she wanted it. He helps her with patrols, didn’t buckle under torture, and looks after her friends. All of this without his soul which he eventually seeks out on his own. He wanted it to be able to be what she needs.
Angel on the other hand, did none of these things. He was an ass as a human. His father kicked him out for being such a disappointment. He hated his father. When he was turned by Darla, he went and killed his family. He tormented people all over Europe because that his TRUE nature. He doesn’t turn into the Angel we know until he is cursed. He not only gained his soul but made him into the opposite of the way he really is by nature. When he becomes Angelus on Buffy, we see him as he really is meant to be. After turning into Angelus, he hates Buffy and doesn’t want his soul back. Once again, it has to be forced on him. Angelus wouldn’t ever be able to care for Buffy. Spike on the other hand loves her with or without his soul. Buffy is the opposite of what Angelus wants…he wants a monster like himself. In the end, Spike dies for her and her friends. Angel never did anything but mope and brood.
Totally agree. Spike is awesome. If he were a beer he’d be a lager: robust, full of flavor, complex,very intoxicating, sort of mysterious.
Angel is O’Douls non-alcoholic. He was more dynamic as Angelus and much smarter.
Spike never gave up, was always there for those he cared for, and loved his mother.
Angel/ Angelus with or without a soul turned on those he was supposed to care for every other week. He often lost hope with someone having to talk his whiny butt off a ledge all the time. Usually Spike. Angel thought he should have Buffy but he didn’t deserve her at all. He never got to a place where he did. He didn’t love her without a soul. He ran around like a mad man feeling sorry for himself and living in the gutters for a century b4 someone else decided he should atone. The Powers that Be or something.
Angel was just obssessed with being a real boy and when he felt it might get too hard or things wouldn’t go his way he brooded, pouted, and gave up until someone forced him back on track.
He was so busy being the cool guy who was the boss of things but inside he was just a spoiled brat needing attention from his daddy and everyone else while seeking everyone’s approval. God forbid you talked about his hair. He might pout for decades.
Spike fought for his soul to be a better man even if he couldn’t have the girl. He felt unworthy of her but strived everyday to be the man she needed. He loved Buffy with or without a soul. When he got his soul he only brooded and went crazy for a few weeks (mostly due to the big bad that was messing with his head and triggering his bad side), which Angel was jealous of, but that was because Spike knew what he had to do, make amends. he also realized he could never make up for all the wrong but knew he must continue to fight the good fight anyway even if things were hopeless. And Spike tried to keep a sense of humor about it. Spike learned to not care so much what people thought of him unless they were important to him, a far cry from his human days. He learned to enjoy life (unlife) and keep pushing through. he maintained friendships. He could be counted on. Most human men and women would probably have tried to kill Buffy for the way she dogged him out. She treated him so bad because its easier to be horrible to those you know will never leave you. Spike didn’t mind not being the leader because the leader is usually a big a-hole. He was best just being the backup, the confidante, the cheer-leader, the pep-talker, the shoulder to cry on, the comic relief, the heart and soul, and if you want to be sappy, the wind beneath their wings.
Buffy and Spike grew and changed and developed in the shows. Angel stayed the same.
Team Spike!